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  • Volkswagen's I.D. R sets a new overall Pikes Peak record but does it fit with the spirit of the hillclimb event?

    Nobody is shocked to learn that Volkswagen set a new record with their I.D. R Pikes Peak hill climb car making the sprint to the top in 7:57 (breaking the record by 16 seconds). The goal was to take the record and the all-electric car did so as expected. Does the I.D. R really maintain the spirit of the Pikes Peak hill climb though?


    Pikes Peak is supposed to be tough. It is supposed to challenge both the driver and the car. The steep climb in elevation is what tested the best internal combustion motors. It is supposed to get tougher as you near the summit, not easier.

    An electric car throws this all out the window. It is not compressing any air. Power remains the same whether at the base or the summit. Elevation has no impact on the motor.

    In other words, lame. Yes, the I.D. R is fast. Yes, it's an engineering masterpiece. Yet it is also cold and detached. Where is the soul? Where is the struggle for that last few hundred feet? Where is a motor gasping for air along with its driver at the finish?

    It may be fast but it sure feels more like an appliance than hill climb car. If Pikes Peak has a soul, the I.D. R does not reflect it.


    This article was originally published in forum thread: Volkswagen's I.D. R sets a new overall Pikes Peak record but does it fit with the spirit of the hillclimb event? started by Sticky View original post
    Comments 25 Comments
    1. BLKROKT's Avatar
      BLKROKT -
      Of course it fits the spirit. Run what you brung, quickest up the mountain wins, however you need to do it. It’s obviously a handful to drive with that instant torque. A better test of driver than car, as it probably should be IMO.
    1. Sticky2's Avatar
      Sticky2 -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BLKROKT Click here to enlarge
      Of course it fits the spirit. Run what you brung, quickest up the mountain wins, however you need to do it. It’s obviously a handful to drive with that instant torque. A better test of driver than car, as it probably should be IMO.
      I disagree. It's a test of man and machine. This record feels hollow.
    1. BLKROKT's Avatar
      BLKROKT -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky2 Click here to enlarge
      I disagree. It's a test of man and machine. This record feels hollow.
      It’s still a machine. Anyone is welcome to make something faster.

      It’s pretty lame to say it’s hollow. That’s a hell of a car they built.
    1. Sticky2's Avatar
      Sticky2 -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BLKROKT Click here to enlarge
      It’s still a machine. Anyone is welcome to make something faster.

      It’s pretty lame to say it’s hollow. That’s a hell of a car they built.
      No. Achieving it with internal combustion is more impressive and more stressful. Elevation is part of the difficulty and electrification eliminates that. It isn't a hill climb unless elevation is a factor.
    1. Bowser330's Avatar
      Bowser330 -
      It’s pretty clear from stickys numerous threads and posts what his feelings are regarding electric cars. Comes out loud and clear on this thread as well.

      it’s a similar hollow argument paralleling the manual vs automatic debate. now days many of those same auto-haters are proudly driving the “less engaging” “disconnected feeling” “drives for you” “point and shoot” automatics. Yes a dual clutch is an automatic, if it can shift on its own, it’s auto. Stop kidding yourself and making up the rules as you go. Just like the automatic haters came around to embrace superior technology so will the electric car haters. Battery tech and electric motor tech are in their infancy compared to the research and investment that has been put in to the internal combustion engine.

      also the previous record holder had a crazy power to weight advantage over the heavier and less powerful electric car even considering the altitude effects.

      Peugeot 208 T16
      1925lbs 875kg 875hp (1:1)
      2.20lbs/hp at low altitude
      3.14lbs/hp at high altitude assuming power is reduced by 30%
      So the actual average number is somewhere in the middle...

      VW ID R
      2425lbs 680hp
      3.56lbs/hp
    1. bmwsport's Avatar
      bmwsport -
      The current record holder was a 875HP TT 3.2L Peugeot 208 Race Car. It ran an 8:13 back in 2013. VW went out with their new EV race car to beat the current EV record of 9:07 set by Rhys Millen. Nobody thought that someone would beat that overall Peugeot record of 8:13, much less with an electric car. First run ever under 8 minutes this last weekend. So besides a 0-60 time of 2.2 seconds, the car can obviously handle the corners.

      The 1929LB 875HP Peugeot. Seriously fast car. Damn, looks pretty risky to some of those spectators standing on the side of the road!


      This years all time record breaking VW electric racer.
      https://insideevs.com/volkswagen-i-d...es-loebs-time/
    1. Sticky's Avatar
      Sticky -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmwsport Click here to enlarge
      The 1929LB 875HP Peugeot. Seriously fast car. Damn, looks pretty risky to some of those spectators standing on the side of the road!
      Threads merged.
    1. Sticky's Avatar
      Sticky -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bowser330 Click here to enlarge
      it’s a similar hollow argument paralleling the manual vs automatic debate. now days many of those same auto-haters are proudly driving the “less engaging” “disconnected feeling” “drives for you” “point and shoot” automatics. Yes a dual clutch is an automatic, if it can shift on its own, it’s auto.
      Wrong. If you can shift it manually does it become a manual? No. It's a dual clutch. Call it what it is.

      When I drive my PDK back to back with an actual automatic like the GM box in the Z06 it is a night and day difference in interaction. How is that possible if they are both automatic as you claim? How is one more engaging?

      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bowser330 Click here to enlarge
      Just like the automatic haters came around to embrace superior technology so will the electric car haters. Battery tech and electric motor tech are in their infancy compared to the research and investment that has been put in to the internal combustion engine.
      This is not a matter of embracing a technology. If all it is about is who gets there fastest then take a helicopter. Boom, you're done. No car will touch it.

      The hillclimb event is about more than just raw speed. Elevation is a huge factor in hill climbs. The electric motor essentially removes this variable. You take it out and it just is not as challenging.

      Fastest does not always equal best or more rewarding.
    1. BLKROKT's Avatar
      BLKROKT -
      Altitude is still a factor. You think it doesn’t affect the driver?

      Horse-and-buggy owners acted just like you once upon a time. “But, having a horse pull you around is just a much more rewarding sensory experience.”


      You’re wrong. We want flying cars. This is what progress looks like.
    1. Sticky's Avatar
      Sticky -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BLKROKT Click here to enlarge
      Altitude is still a factor. You think it doesn’t affect the driver?
      That's the point. Altitude should effect both.

      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BLKROKT Click here to enlarge
      Horse-and-buggy owners acted just like you once upon a time. “But, having a horse pull you around is just a much more rewarding sensory experience.”
      This isn't a question of speed but spirit. You're missing one.

      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BLKROKT Click here to enlarge
      You’re wrong. We want flying cars. This is what progress looks like.
      So nobody has to go up the mountain?
    1. Bowser330's Avatar
      Bowser330 -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
      That's the point. Altitude should effect both.
      you're missing his point, he IS saying it affects both, both cars had human drivers that breathe oxygen don't they?

      I already proved that the previous record holder Peugeot had the power to weight advantage, or at least its a very similar power to weight ratio, even considering the altitude difference...so the EV did not have a technological advantage...

      Also, EVs and hybrids have been racing up that hill for YEARS without one peep about how "hollow" it is... only when they win and are victorious do people start to complain and bring them down....
    1. Sticky's Avatar
      Sticky -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bowser330 Click here to enlarge
      you're missing his point, he IS saying it affects both, both cars had human drivers that breathe oxygen don't they?
      I am not. I am saying that is only one of two parts that should be effected. Was clear.

      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bowser330 Click here to enlarge
      I already proved that the previous record holder Peugeot had the power to weight advantage
      And?

      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bowser330 Click here to enlarge
      so the EV did not have a technological advantage...
      LOL it has a huge advantage.

      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bowser330 Click here to enlarge
      Also, EVs and hybrids have been racing up that hill for YEARS without one peep about how "hollow" it is... only when they win and are victorious do people start to complain and bring them down....
      That's fine. That doesn't mean I need to think hillclimbs are about EV's. As far as I'm concerned hillclimbs are to test internal combustion engines and the elevation is supposed to play a major role.
    1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
      BlackJetE90OC -
      Pikes Peak died when they paved the entire road because of environmental activists.

      No no one cares anymore.
    1. Bowser330's Avatar
      Bowser330 -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
      Pikes Peak died when they paved the entire road because of environmental activists.

      No no one cares anymore.
      fair point, when they paved that final section the peugeot was able to demolish the old record.
    1. bmwsport's Avatar
      bmwsport -
      If you just want a rewarding experience, just drive a lightweight Mazda Miata with a fart can exhaust. Everything feels fast. I personally would prefer the faster machine, and if it is electric, even better. No need to worry about smog compliance, etc. For those who ask if you would miss the sound of a gas engine, the answer is no. One of the most rewarding experiences is being able to hear every little sound detail of the car next to you. You can hear every ping, down shift, etc, soon as they step on the throttle. And it is rather pleasing to hear all that racket as a gas engine vehicle tries to keep up with you in an electric car. Regardless if they beat you in the end, all the effort is rather amusing. All the while, they are getting 9mpg at the same time I am getting 70+MPGe. The electric motor is far superior than the internal combustion engine. I tested the P100D a few weeks ago and ran 2.63 0-60 times, and high 10 second quarter mile times on modest width all season tires without even a slight chirp. How many gas cars could run that time and not even make a motorcycle cop turn his head as you go right behind him. Name a gas car that can run those times with one gear than can still go 150mph and average over 70MPGe.

      So while you may discount the efforts of the VW team, you should applaud them for the handicap they have to work with today's battery technology in which it takes over 600LBS of battery to store the equivalent energy of just one gallon of fuel (33.4kWh). Even while being significantly heavier, the EV race car beat the lighter 875TT 1974lb Peugeot. So while battery technology will improve hopefully, the electric motor is FAR superior in performance and efficiency than any fossil fueled car. And yes, can't wait to see the $200,000 Tesla Roadster racing against the $300-$400k Ferraris, etc...when it looks like it will take a car over a million dollars to keep pace. Here are some of the numbers for review:

      TESLA ROADSTER vs BUGATTI CHIRON:

      0-60MPH 1.9sec 2.4 sec
      1/4 mile 8.8 sec 9.8 sec
      0-100mph 4.2 sec 5.0 sec
      Top Speed 250mph+ 261mph
      Range: 620 mi 286 mi
      Seating: Four Two
      Price: $200,000 $3,000,000

      And this is for the base Roadster, with a performance version promised to follow.
      They could sell the Tesla Roadster for a $1,000,000 and I bet they would sell out.
      Take your loud, involving car, and I will take the car that can take on a superbike at any intersection with no warm up burnout, launch control, or commotion. All while being small legal and very energy efficient.

      Before discounting the efforts by VW, see what the driver has to say. Here the opinions from someone that does not specialize in driving electric cars:

      https://insideevs.com/driver-says-on...r-than-lemans/

      And of course see what another professional car tester had to say about the new Tesla Roadster:



      Don't get me wrong, steam engine locomotives are loud, beautiful, and provoke a unique, nostalgic experience, but...you get the point.
    1. Sticky's Avatar
      Sticky -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmwsport Click here to enlarge
      TESLA ROADSTER vs BUGATTI CHIRON:

      0-60MPH 1.9sec 2.4 sec
      1/4 mile 8.8 sec 9.8 sec
      0-100mph 4.2 sec 5.0 sec
      Top Speed 250mph+ 261mph
      Range: 620 mi 286 mi
      Seating: Four Two
      Price: $200,000 $3,000,000

      And this is for the base Roadster, with a performance version promised to follow.
      They could sell the Tesla Roadster for a $1,000,000 and I bet they would sell out.
      Take your loud, involving car, and I will take the car that can take on a superbike at any intersection with no warm up burnout, launch control, or commotion. All while being small legal and very energy efficient.
      So you're comparing a car that doesn't even exist yet and who knows what it will cost to something Volkswagen delivered?

      If you think you're going to be in a Tesla Roadster you're delusional.

      Faster does not mean better.
    1. bmwsport's Avatar
      bmwsport -
      Guess you didn't watch the video. Car already exists. They were giving test rides in it. Car will be here soon, racing all kinds of old loud cars on you tube. More people will realize the fate of gas engines after the publicity that will be generated . Many of those cars already have problems keeping up with the 5000lb Tesla family sedan!
    1. Sticky2's Avatar
      Sticky2 -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmwsport Click here to enlarge
      Guess you didn't watch the video. Car already exists. They were giving test rides in it. Car will be here soon, racing all kinds of old loud cars on you tube. More people will realize the fate of gas engines after the publicity that will be generated . Many of those cars already have problems keeping up with the 5000lb Tesla family sedan!
      Comsidering I have written about it I'm aware a prototype exists. It isn't for sale.

      IDGAF how fast it is either. It will be just as boring to drive as that Tesla sedan.
    1. Bowser330's Avatar
      Bowser330 -
      @bmwsport , I’ve realized it’s a lost cause trying to explain anything to the Ev haters. They will protect their position with subjective remarks about what is “more engaging” or what’s “boring” to them. It’s their opinion and I just hope they actually own it instead of jumping on the bandwagon when they are getting left behind.

      all the major performance brands are involved in some way with electric technology, hybrid or ev, whatever, it’s called progress and we should be embracing it not hating on it.
    1. Sticky's Avatar
      Sticky -
      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bowser330 Click here to enlarge
      I’ve realized it’s a lost cause trying to explain anything to the Ev haters. They will protect their position with subjective remarks about what is “more engaging” or what’s “boring” to them. It’s their opinion and I just hope they actually own it instead of jumping on the bandwagon when they are getting left behind.
      How can you deny an internal combustion more is more engaging from a sensory perspective? EV's eliminate one of the most important aspects which is sound and there is something about the smell of a high performance exhaust. This is all gone with EV's.

      Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bowser330 Click here to enlarge
      all the major performance brands are involved in some way with electric technology, hybrid or ev, whatever, it’s called progress and we should be embracing it not hating on it.
      Nobody is hating on progress. Not everything progressive is necessarily better.